OneMedicine Podcast

Rob Lutz 00:02
Hello and welcome to the OneMedicine Podcast with Today's Practitioner. In each episode, we share the expertise of a respected thought leader. Some you'll know, and others you'll probably meet for the first time. We cover topics important to you, always with a focus on improving the health outcomes of the patients you treat, while expanding your understanding of the many healing modalities being used today.

Rob Lutz 00:24
Hi and welcome to the OneMedicine Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Lutz, and today we're going to talk about psilocybin in practice. And I've got two fantastic guests that I've known for a long time, Pam Conboy and Dr. Leah Linder. I'll do a quick intro and the bios on my guests, and then I'm going to turn it over to them to really help guide the conversation. But we will focus on a few key things around psilocybin, its mechanisms of action, some clinical research around depression, trauma, addiction, and cognitive decline. We will obviously dig into the legal status of psilocybin and how to work with that. Some case reports, and something I find really interesting is microdosing with psilocybin and using other supportive botanicals in conjunction with that, which I think these folks have quite a bit of experience with that, and we'll touch on that during the conversation here today. So again, our two guests today, Reverend Leah Linder, a naturopath with a background in biochemistry and emergency medicine. Leah is a naturopathic physician trained in psychedelic-assisted therapy and deep expertise in natural supplement formulation and manufacture. She's a master gardener, experienced educator, and an ordained minister. Reverend Pam Conboy has a background in biology as well. Pam is trained as a clinical laboratorian and currently a doctoral student in naturopathic medicine. She is an IIN-certified health coach, trained psychedelic facilitator, medical marketing business-development entrepreneur, and an ordained minister. So thank you both for joining us today on the OneMedicine podcast. Again, we're going to talk about psychedelics in practice, and just curious, if there's anything you guys want to just kick it off with. What's really got you excited about this topic? How'd you get here? I'll turn it over to you guys to share that with us.

Pam Conboy 02:11
Well, thanks so much for having us first. This is our very favoritest topic to speak about, so we tend to get really excited, and we will try to behave on your podcast. But we have really found over--we've been in business as a church for a year, just a year this month, actually, and the response from both your everyday citizen, as well as healthcare practitioners, has been nearly overwhelming, to our total and utter delight.

Rob Lutz 02:43
Yeah, so it's a hot topic.

Pam Conboy 02:46
So thank you for having us.

Rob Lutz 02:47
You're welcome. You're welcome.

Leah Linder 02:48
Thank you so much. Rob. I'm really excited to chat about this. And as Pam said, we get so excited about this because it really is such a profound medicine. And I say medicine, because it's not just placating symptoms, it's actually getting at the root cause as to so many different mental and emotional aspects of our lives. And you know, when I speak to audiences, I say, "Okay, raise your hands if you've never experienced any trauma in your life." And nobody ever can, right? And the topic of mental health is such a taboo, even though it is getting more popular to be able to talk about it. It's something that lies beneath the surface. We can put on our bright, shiny faces, but we all struggle in one way or another. It's part of the human experience. And so by addressing this, with using plant medicine, truly gets at addressing the systems that are having a hard time. And the more you use it, the less you need to achieve the same benefits. So that's my favorite part about it, and why I really do see this as honest-to-goodness medicine.

Rob Lutz 03:54
Well, how did you guys, how did you get here? This is not your typical route, let's say, for a licensed naturopath, other than the fact that you're looking for root cause and ways to help your patients, and I'm sure, open to anything that works. But tell me a little bit of how you got here and maybe some of the experiences you've had with patients.

Leah Linder 04:10
Yeah, absolutely. So a couple of years ago, I had, it was one week that was kind of the pivoting point. I had three different patients, totally unrelated to each other, come to me and say, "Oh, I listened this podcast, I read this article, I watched this documentary, and I really want to start microdosing." And, you know, pardon my ignorance, but at that time, I had really only seen psychedelics as recreational substances, and so I was like, "Okay, give me a minute. Let me dive into the research. I want to learn more about this before I say this is a good idea." I mean, obviously I can't stop them, but I dove into the science, and the research was there. So there's so many studies that indicate benefits for depression, anxiety, PTSD, other mental health conditions, such as cognitive decline, but even now more so, there's stuff coming out on diabetes and sleep and chronic pain. So I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is, this is beautiful. I'm so grateful that there is actually science there." But as you mentioned in my bio, I come from a background in the, you know, professional supplement space, so the nutraceutical space that is geared towards practitioners, and have worked with many companies. And my biggest thing is that everybody was coming to me with their little baggie that they got from God knows where, and I was really concerned about, you know, what is the strain? What is the potency? Is this tested for heavy metals? Is this tested for mycotoxins? And wanting to know that, like, this was a clean product that I was, you know, condoning with my patients, and so didn't have that information. But I said, Okay, this seems legitimate. Let's go ahead and start micro dosing. And they had all of the background, foundational naturopathic stuff on board. So we were working on sleep hygiene and diet and lifestyle, and all of these patients collectively had very high--they're high functioning individuals, so ER docs and an architect and a business owner. And this was the most profound catalyst of change that I saw in any of these people, and these patients. And I was like, "Wow! What is this, like?" I mean, they were coming to me saying, like, "I think I can taper off of my antidepressants," or "I just feel like I'm connecting with my family in so much more of a dynamic way," or like "I'm finally able to put the bottle down." At the end of the day, like I don't need to reach for that substance to help calm down my brain and relax. And I was like, "Oh, my God." So Pam and I were having lunch one day, and I was telling her this story, and I was like, "Pam, we gotta get this in the water." Like, there's so many people that could benefit from this, and it's such a safe substance, you know, compared to like any mind-altering substance, psilocybin has the strongest safety profile, more than alcohol, more than nicotine, you know, all of these beautiful things. And Pam's eyes lit up. She's like, "Okay, let's figure this out." So I'll turn it over to her to kind of talk about where this led.

Rob Lutz 07:16
Yeah. Thank you.

Pam Conboy 07:18
Yeah, so Leah and I worked at a professional nutraceutical company. We both have this background of where you could source things, how things needed to be tested. So the foundational understanding of how we could do it, we had. It was how we could do it legally, that was the challenge. So, you know, I knew there was Ayahuasca churches. They operated pretty openly, so my task was to figure out how they're doing that without being harassed. And it so happens that in as far back as 1993 the Feds passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. So this was really intended to provide protection for indigenous peoples who are using plant medicines--and they had been using them for hundreds or thousands of years--and, you know, get the government off their ass, becauseyou know, they would be harassed from time to time. So the legislation, however, does not state what the practice is, nor what the plant is, just that if this is used, these plants, these entheogens, are used in sincere spiritual practice that's protected use. We will not come and bother you. So, fantastic. There also happens to be an attorney bar of psychedelic lawyers. So, I had a lot of resources, had a lot of conversations, a lot of risk assessment, and it seemed... okay, if we do this properly, I think it's gonna work. And that's why there's a big separation between Leah as doctor, although having somebody in the church that understands medicine is fantastic.

Pam Conboy 09:00
She's not a doctor. We don't provide medical services. We really abide by sort of a religious institution. So we're a 501(3)(c), we are recognized as a church. And you know, even the FDA, though the psilocybin and other psychedelics remain scheduled, in 2018 and 2019, FDA itself designated psilocybin as Breakthrough Therapy status for both depression and trauma. So this really opened the door for more modern investigation, more research. Most of the academic institutions in the U.S. have a psychedelic lab, and what's coming out of those labs is astonishing. Leah was mentioning it's not just about depression and mood and stress anymore. We have a neurologist here in town that sends us probably four or five patients a month: cognitive decline full on Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, TBIs. We had a guy--this is, this is miraculous, Rob. We had a guy that was referred over by this neurologist. The poor guy fell down the stairs. He's like, 50 years old or something, severed at C3, so he wakes up a quadriplegic.

Rob Lutz 09:00
Right.

Pam Conboy 10:21
And this doctor said, "So you should maybe talk to these ladies," you know. And he was being cared for. He's in a supportive facility. And I had a... I had an initial conversation, and I was concerned that you most... your expectations might be a little too high. Definitely, and Leah will dive into this, definitely, the mechanisms are there, meaning we know that psilocybin, you know, floods your brain with BDNF. You grow new neurons. You can see this in PubMed papers. It's super cool. New, new connections, ridiculous inflammation, all the good things. However, you know, you're in some serious condition, not sure physically what this could do for you, but it's probably going to help with your attitude to kind of adjust to your new body. So he's like, okay, that's, that's good enough.

Rob Lutz 10:21
Oh my gosh.

Rob Lutz 11:13
Yeah.

Pam Conboy 11:14
In about four or five weeks, on microdose, he's moving his feet.

Rob Lutz 11:22
And that's like, .2 grams per dose, is that?

Pam Conboy 11:25
That's our microdose. So, microdose kind of ranges 50--now this is whole mushroom, right? Just to be clear, it's not small molecule. So 50 up to 500, so we kind of put our microdose kind of right in the middle. That works best for most people, but some microdose much lower, some much higher.

Rob Lutz 11:44
Sure.

Pam Conboy 11:45
Yes, microdose on a schedule, on our schedule that Leah developed, he's moving his feet. And the neurologist is like, "Holy shit, this is amazing." So we're, we're hoping to write a paper about this, because there's, I mean, miracle could have happened anyway, potentially, but he has nothing else on board that should have resulted in...

Rob Lutz 12:06
Usually, there's an explanation behind a miracle, right? Yeah. So What? What? I'm sorry. Go ahead. You were going to say something else.

Pam Conboy 12:12
I was gonna say the power of positive thinking and attitude, and all of that does make a difference, but the mechanisms are there, and that this could happen with microdosing is, it took my--well, this work takes my breath away on a daily basis, but this particular case was really mind-blowing.

Rob Lutz 12:30
That's, that's amazing. Yeah, I think, as you know, practitioners are listening. They, they, I think they've heard more about the science and, you know, and so I'd like to talk more about that and the mechanisms, but I think the concern is always how to do this legally, how to avoid telling you, which they would never do, to go find a little baggie somewhere and just take a little bit, see how that does for you. You know that would never work. So the fact that you guys have really brought this up to modern standards of the dietary supplement industry, you know, where it's clean, it's dosed correctly, it's it's safe, you guys are pretty convinced on the right dosage levels, based on what you guys have seen. So I think some of those bigger questions, and I think we should come back to those, you know, is what you guys are doing at the church, how a practitioner could work with you guys, with themselves or their patients. I think they're going to be very interested in that. I'd like to hear a little bit more about, you know, what was it about the science and what you saw that made you want to do this. You know, that's what I think a lot of practitioners, because I, you know, I did a quick search, there's tons of studies out there, right, that support this. I personally don't understand the mechanism of how it can do any of those things. So maybe we could talk a little bit about that.

Rob Lutz 13:34
You mentioned trauma early on. It sounds to me that someone who's had a traumatic experience could be sort of stuck, you know, and they might keep repeating that. Is that how that might work? Is that?

Leah Linder 13:34
Yeah, absolutely. I'd be super happy to talk about this. This is where my nerdy brain gets to saw lately, but psilocybin has basically five to six main mechanisms in the body. So psilocybin is metabolized into psilocin within the liver, which really closely resembles serotonin. So it's able to bind to the 5-H2A, as well as the 5-H2B receptor, but not as much affinity, serotonin receptor. And most of these serotonin receptors are located in the prefrontal cortex, and this triggers a cascade of cellular events that promote neuroplasticity, or the brain's ability to form new connections. So this receptor plays a really critical role in cognition, as far as enhancing creativity, problem solving, abstract thinking. From an emotional perspective, it can modulate mood and emotional processing, also our perception, so it can alter our sensory experience and deeper introspection. So collectively, this is going to help break negative thought loops such as rumination. It enhances emotional flexibility and resilience. It also, you know, supports that recovery from mental health concerns, such as depression and anxiety, which are so often a deficiency of serotonin and other endorphins in the body. So instead of just recycling from this place of not having enough, it actually boosts the amount of serotonin that you're going to have in your brain. And then psilocin also, like Pam was saying, boosts what's called brain-derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF, which supports new neuron growth. It basically floods the brain to, you know, encourage new neuron growth and strengthen existing ones. So this is going to enhance cognitive function, emotional balance and stress resilience. And then it also, because of the support of BDNF, it's also going to have this profound anti-inflammatory effect on the body. So we know that chronic stress and mental health conditions are linked to neuroinflammation, and psilocin is actually able to reduce inflammation in the brain. So this is going to improve neural communication and mental clarity, but then beyond that, it also disrupts what's called the default mode network, or DMN, and this is responsible for that self-referential thinking, so that overthinking, that rumination. And psilocybin, even in microdosing forms, can disrupt that default mode network pattern, creating space for new perspectives and reducing those mental roadblocks. And you know, so many of us will get stuck in a pattern, because our brains really love to be efficient. So unfortunate--like, that can be beneficial. We want to know how we get to work in the morning, and we want to know, recognize our partner's face. But it also can lead to, you know, those patterns of, I'm not good enough, or whatever that long-term pattern is.

Leah Linder 16:40
Oh yeah, absolutely, because the body's trying to keep itself safe, right? And so that rumination of this traumatic event again and again and again, you know, that goes through is trying to say like, oh, not safe, not safe. And so by disrupting that default mode network, it can say like, oh, let me reorient to who I am as an individual, and we have a really fun case study that I see Pam getting excited to talk about. But real quick, the final pathway is the gut-brain access. So we know that that bidirectional communication network with the vagus nerve, the immune system, and the endocrine system, 90% of serotonin is produced in the gut, and psilocybin is going to not only enhance gut motility and digestion, but it also enhances gut microbiome balance, which is going to have positive influence in that gut-brain access. So it's going to reduce gut inflammation and enhance those beneficial bacteria. Because again, we're using whole mushroom. So we have our beta glucans, we have our tertiary alkaloids that are also present, that are going to support healthy gut microbiota function. And then also it can support the vagus nerve activation, which is so much when we get stuck in a pattern, that is going to support digestion, stress regulation, and that emotional resilience as well, even at microdosing. So those are kind of the main mechanisms.

Rob Lutz 18:05
Well, I mean, it's--what an amazing plant or compound or fungus, I guess, right? I mean, mushroom, this little thing that grows in the ground, can do all these amazing things.

Leah Linder 18:13
And we co-evolved with them, you know, is another thing. There's that called the stoned ape theory, where, you know, when we crawled out of the trees, we started following the herds. And in the fields, as we followed the herds, the mushrooms started growing out of the feces. And so all of these, you know, beautiful hominids started walking around and eating the mushrooms. And there was this huge explosion in the development of the prefrontal cortex, which is all about our judgment, language development, our interpersonal actions, and it was how we evolved with and how we like really took that next step in evolution as being a human.

Rob Lutz 18:52
Yeah, I mean, it probably on some level, it's creativity to look at things in a different way. And if eating those mushrooms allowed them to do that, what a breakthrough that must have been. Pam, you were going to say something? It kind of looked like you had

Pam Conboy 19:05
Oh, you know, when you bring up trauma, I always think of one of my favorite cases. And it was, she was one of our first macro--we do macrodose ceremonies as well, and those are typically, it's a much bigger shift. You definitely have a psychedelic experience. But it is incredibly valuable for people who are stuck, who are seriously stuck, and folks that have a lot of extended trauma, chronic trauma, definitely get in these places. So there is a woman that came to us in her mid-50s, had a just a horrific history of sexual abuse through her childhood into adulthood. She had been for decades wearing sort of the happy face. She was the comedian in the family, and this was all within the family, all of the abuse, and it was completely denied. But she put on this mask that she'd been wearing for a very long time. She had real struggles with family relationships, clearly, but her own family, her own family that she created, very heavy alcohol problem and kind of came to us interested, but Jesus, scared to death that she was going to fall apart in a million pieces, because "I'm barely holding it together now." So we do a very good job at getting people prepared, get their intention proper, having a very beautiful and intentional ceremony, and allowing them to experience these medicines the way they're meant to experience them. We don't force any particular protocols down their throat. I have 15 acres that is set up for anybody's experience. It's like quite lovely. Anyway, rather than falling apart, she spent most of the afternoon under a tree. That's our sitter tree, Arthur. You know, Arthur told me his name a long time ago. So Arthur is the sitter tree. She was under there, tears streaming down her face, big smile on her face and talking to whoever she talks to, and as she's coming out of this experience, you know, she kind of gets up with a big grin on her face and says, "Who am I now without this burden?" Holy shit! Holy shit! Welcome home!

Rob Lutz 21:16
Yes.

Pam Conboy 21:16
I mean, it's a gigantic shift, not just the words that are coming out of her mouth, but the energy, everything from when she walked in the door til she came out of her experience shifted dramatically. And these changes are really durable. We help support, of course, with integration practices, and we're very collaborative with other therapists in the area and wellness practitioners, but and we have the microdose pairings that Leah can talk about. But she's in a great place. She got her two sons back in her house and a job after having been unemployed for two years within like six weeks after that experience,

Rob Lutz 22:01
So she just kind of shed the whole trauma, or whatever that was doing to her, and what was left was?

Pam Conboy 22:07
Unstuck. She'd gotten stuck. I like telling people that, you know, when you get stuck like that, it's like you're in a shit river, right? Your feet, you're up to mud, up to your knees, all the turds are flowing through your eyes and your ear calls. You're a mess. It owns you. Mushrooms kind of take you out of the river, put you on the bank. The river's still there, but it doesn't own you, anyway.

Rob Lutz 22:31
Right. Right.

Pam Conboy 22:32
So you can see it and process it, and see it for what it is and not who you are,

Rob Lutz 22:37
Right. Yeah, so that's probably that neuroplasticity. So she was able to just kind of--

Pam Conboy 22:40
For sure.

Rob Lutz 22:42
Yeah. wow.

Leah Linder 22:43
Yeah. And it also really helps with that emotional processing and that, you know, mood regulation. So, I mean, there's a lot of studies out there that demonstrate this, but, you know, there is, like, so much potential for those that have anxiety, those that have depression. You know, even ADHD is a huge one in there. There's studies that it shows to improve focus and problem solving and creativity in individuals with ADHD, and this is likely due to that enhanced neuroplasticity, but it also helps break those rigid thought patterns that is so much associated with PTSD and trauma processing. So it helps people break free. It is that catalyst to view yourself in a different way, view your life experiences in a different way, which, you know, I think all of us could benefit from.

Rob Lutz 23:37
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it makes me think of someone with borderline personality disorder that, you know. Have you had any experience with anyone with that situation?

Pam Conboy 23:48
But it's trickier. That one's a little bit trickier those, those folks with that sort of triad, or, I guess it's four groups of people, now. It's the psychopathy kind of realm. There are, there are some issues with that, as well as psychosis.

Pam Conboy 24:05
I don't think we've had anybody that was actively bipolar, untreated pyschotic.

Rob Lutz 24:05
Sure.

Rob Lutz 24:10
Not bipolar, but borderline personality disorder.

Rob Lutz 24:14
Sorry, it's kind of in that group.

Rob Lutz 24:16
Yeah, yeah. I guess it is kind of similar, yeah. Because I know that's such a hard one to treat. I mean it's--

Pam Conboy 24:21
Yes

Rob Lutz 24:22
It's, that's a tough diagnosis to get, I think for people.

Pam Conboy 24:24
Narcissism, borderline, psychopathy, it's kind of all--

Leah Linder 24:31
There is those, that kind of, that four categories. So, like I was saying earlier, is that psilocybin has an incredibly strong safety profile. That being said, for individuals that have more of that psychopathy landscape on board, it can encourage a psychotic slip. And so although the research has backed that like, if they are well-medicated and well-managed, that they can participate in psilocybin, but it's unmedicated. They're out in the Wild West. That's kind of theone place, or the that's that one group of individuals where we take a lot more caution with. And they would need to work with their psychiatrist that is medicating them and get approval. So there's a lot more groups that you need to go to.

Rob Lutz 25:21
Much more complicated and, you know, potentially scary, probably for everybody. But it sounds to me like, you know, so many people, whether they have some level on the spectrum of ADHD or whatever it might be, anxiety, depression, there's somewhere in that kind of, again, call it a spectrum that something like this could be very helpful.

Leah Linder 25:39
Oh, incredibly so. So again, one in four of us is on the neurodivergent spectrum. I'll raise my hand. I'm here.

Rob Lutz 25:46
Pretty sure I am too, yeah.

Leah Linder 25:47
Yeah, totally. And it's beautiful. It's a superpower, for sure. But we can utilize psilocybin to help with that focus, help with, so that we--you know, I've had lots of people that I've worked with that are able to taper off of their stimulant medication with some of our pairings. And so it's so profound to again, get at that root cause as to why it's happening in the first place, versus just placating symptoms.

Rob Lutz 25:54
That makes sense. We mentioned the pairings a couple of times, so I do want to spend a little bit of time on that. But you know, are there any other kind of case reports that you guys want to talk about, either the microdose? And I know Pam's like, "I've got a million of them."

Leah Linder 26:28
We've got so many. We've got so many. Like, there's huge, there's so much success that we've seen in this last year. Because, again, we've only been operating for a year. But, I mean, it gives me tears in my eyes.

Rob Lutz 26:42
I saw that, yeah.

Leah Linder 26:43
We look at each other, and, you know, just acknowledge that like this is the most profound work that I have ever done. And I'm sure Pam feels the same way. People truly shift and have long-term, meaningful change.

Rob Lutz 26:58
Yeah. I mean, I think as a practitioner, you know, you can feel great if you've helped someone with their their gut health, or help them lower their cholesterol. Those are all great things. But I think anything that's kind of your mental health, that is something that you're with all the time, and if it's not really firing on all cylinders, or you're anxious or depressed, or if there's a way to solve that, long-term without all the side effects of medications that, you know, for some people work. A lot of people, I don't think they do, that well. But if you get into that root cause, what's causing that blockage or that them being stuck, it sounds like this is, you've had a lot of success with that. Pam, do you want any other case reports?

Rob Lutz 27:38
Yeah.

Pam Conboy 27:38
Oh, my God, there's just so many. There is just so many. So we have most people come to us, and it's mood associated. Other than the ones that I mentioned, the the neurologist, that's mostly cognitive, and these folks are doing really, really well, the microdose pairing. So, it's really helping with mood elevation, some level of cognition and memory, kind of retention. So it's making subtle and microdose whispers. So it is kind of subtle shifts over time, but noticeable enough that they all stay on it. They report back to their neurologist that things are going better. So that's beautiful. It's the bigger experiences that we do, either in small group or individually, that are just--Leah and I are kind of have our mouths hanging open by the time the folks leave, right? Because it--I mean chronic chronic issues, chronic depression, chronic anxiety, it gets resolved. I mean, it's a giant shift with one big dose, and some will remain on microdosing. Some don't feel the need to, but the reports that we get back is like, "Wow! I have a better relationship with myself, my family, I quit drinking. I can think my creative work has never been better." You know, we have a professor that's an older woman in her 60s and struggled for a lifetime with anxiety, like debilitating anxiety, overeating, you know, excessive balance with food, and she started microdosing. It was improving. She's like, wow, you know, I think this really is working for me. And she came, did a macrodose experience with us, and she walked away, like, "Oh! Oh! I'm a new human being."

Pam Conboy 29:28
This is on the regular. This happens very, very regularly. It's, you know, and a lot of people will ask, "How often do I do it? How long do I stay on the microdosing?" It really depends on the individual. Chronic trauma people often will have layers to get rid of, you know. So you get the first crust off and toss that off and make peace with that. And maybe a few months later, you come and do another big journey, Or maybe just the micro dosing is enough to keep you moving in the right direction. It really depends on the human being. And we'd like to say, you know, when people ask, "How often do I have to do this?" Well, I don't know. You'll tell me. It's between you and the mushrooms.

Rob Lutz 30:23
Yeah.

Leah Linder 30:23
Yep, it's your communion with the plant medicine. Yeah, because you really do develop a relationship with it. And you know, if you do it in sacred and sincere practice, you make a relationship with a plant medicine, and then you interact with it. You'll know.

Rob Lutz 30:40
Talk a little bit about that, your intention, the sincere relationship with the plant. You know, this is not a recreational, let's go have a fun weekend kind of thing, maybe that you did in college. This is really, you're here for therapeutic effect. Talk to me a little bit about the intention, and maybe how you guide someone through that journey.

Leah Linder 31:01
Yeah, so set and setting is so important. And very often this is talked about in the psychedelic space. And I'm just here to reiterate it because, like you were saying, if you participate in this plant medicine from a recreational standpoint, you're going to get a very different interaction with the plant medicine, versus saying, "I am going to set a clear intention." And it doesn't have to be like, "Oh, I want to get over this," or "I want to do that," because, again, your subconscious is going to have a communication with the plant medicine. And so when we come into it with setting an intention, having sacred space, clearing out our minds, clearing out our spirit connection with whatever we're dealing with, and then we come into this experience having an opportunity to see something a different way, to reorient to it in a different way. You get so much more of a profound effect. And that really helps you have that intention mindset, which then you can communicate with the plant medicine as like, this is my intention, and then that gets revealed. So beautiful to witness. And not to say that, you know, I don't believe that there's any bad, quote, unquote, trips or journeys that you might have. But I think that when you have intention, yes, there can be hard things that come up, but if you're in safe, sacred space, then those things that come forward are more of a communication, is more of a in-depth understanding of what your body is wanting to process and needing to process and holding onto versus, "Oh, I'm gonna go take this and be at a concert with 3000 people and overstimulated with the noise and the sound and the lights and the people and the stuff." Of course, like when your body is trying to communicate with the plant medicine, and then you're overstimulated and in this different environment, of course, that can, like, make you feel that you are out of control, because you're not. You don't have as much reverence for that. And not that we all haven't been there. I mean, I've been there, but it's just really profound. When you have clear intention into what you're doing.

Rob Lutz 33:18
That makes a lot of sense

Pam Conboy 33:19
Well, and just to clarify that a little bit, because we make every effort to prepare people in the proper way and set the environment and all of that, but this whole discussion between the individual and the plant, the mushrooms, is really important to sort of understand. For example, we had someone that came and did a large journey with us. Her intention, her set intention, her stated intention, was to get a better relationship with food. She's very overweight. But what she actually got out of it, so her mind was in the general kind of vicinity of, "This is the thing I want to address." But what she got out of it was that she had never mourned her father's death. And she went through that process, that she was not honoring her relationship, her love for her children. And this, these problems were driving the behaviors. You kind of, the intention setting is, "This is sort of the neighborhood I would like to address." And then you get the information that you need if you allow it to come.

Rob Lutz 34:28
Right. So the plant did what she asked in a way. She was maybe expecting. I'm not going to be hungry anymore. I'm not going to overeat anything

Pam Conboy 34:34
Or something.

Rob Lutz 34:35
I'm gonna have more willpower, whatever that is. But she figured out, the plant shared with her, that these are things that you haven't dealt with yet. She dealt with them, and then she didn't have that emotional need to fill whatever hole she had with food. And so she was able to, I'm just guessing, but then.

Speaker 1 34:51
And she was able to shift. She also had habitual, quite a lot of alcohol every day. And you know, months later, she was telling us, "I still walk around the lake every night now with my daughter. I very rarely drink anymore. I, you know, carry carrots around in my purse. "Everything shifted.

Speaker 2 34:51
Wow, that's fantastic. All right, so you've talked a little bit about some of these pairings with other botanicals. Can you talk to me a little bit about that whole idea of combining other plant medicines, or plants, with mushrooms, microdose mushrooms, how you chose some of those, and what are some of the impacts?

Leah Linder 35:29
Oh, gosh. I could talk a whole 'nother podcast.

Rob Lutz 35:33
Maybe we'll have to have another one too.

Leah Linder 35:34
Wouldn't that be great. But one of the biggest things is, again, like we have co-evolved with plant medicine, and so I think that that's a foundational thing. And as you know, a naturopathic physician and formulator for supplement companies, we can use these as allies to support us in our process, and especially when it comes to microdosing, because there is other things that need to be addressed that we can utilize plant medicine to support us in that effort. So, for example, nootropics, right? Help with that cognitive enhancement, help with that cognitive function. Adaptogens, whether they be stimulating adaptogens or calming adaptogens, they help our bodies adapt to stress. And so we use stimulating adaptogens if we're stuck on the proverbial couch, can't get up, can't find that motivation, need that extra boost, you know, reach for that third, fourth cup of coffee throughout the day. Or calming adaptogens saying, "Like, okay, let's put the brakes on there and calm down that anxiety, calm down that rumination, calm down that like, ooh, ooh, ooh, never good enough," like, put it down during the day. Or, you know, especially for those people that are waking up in the middle of the night with the ta-da list of like, "Oh, these are all the things that I need to do." Ooh, let's calm those down. You can also use supportive medicines, like nervines that can help soothe and calm our nervous system, or certain amino acids that can help soothe and calm, put the brakes on that overactive nervous system, or give you a little bit more ennervation and motivation throughout that. And then, you know, from a spiritual aspect too, I'm a big believer that plants, as in everything on this planet, carries an energetic sequence with it and has something that it can also whisper to you. So helping with transitions, helping you know, secure and provide more boundaries in our body, getting our little spikes out so that we have that clear, "Nope, you're not going to cross this boundary with me." So there's lots of things that we can utilize with microdosing that can be taken alongside of it that just enhances the benefits of microdosing.

Rob Lutz 37:50
So you have got some different combinations with different purposes. Can you talk a little bit about those?

Leah Linder 37:56
Yeah, absolutely. So I formulated three different pairings, and they are for calm, they are for focus, and they're for introspection. So our calm pairing, all of our boxes come with both the psilocybin as well as the supplement that go along with it. And I know that we're not on video right here, but you can see this is the supplement, and then this is the psilocybin aspect.

Rob Lutz 38:22
So definitely not a little baggy.

Leah Linder 38:25
No, it's not your little baggie that you're getting. It's in a very nice, beautiful box.

Rob Lutz 38:30
Yeah, you know what you're getting. You know the dosages that you're getting.

Leah Linder 38:33
Yeah, absolutely. And the beautiful part is that we were gifted beautiful universe blessing that all of our products are manufactured in a GMP-certified facility, which is the highest standard of FDA regulation. So not only are we sourcing all organic ingredients, but we are manufacturing at the highest standard, so it's not your little baggie. And then we also do third-party testing. So we can guarantee we can give you the C of As that there's no heavy metals, there's no mycotoxins. We know the potency. We know the strain. So that's another beautiful benefit. But getting back into our pairings, so each one is going to come with a psilocybin pairing that has beneficial mushrooms in there, as well as functional mushrooms, so psilocybin and functional mushrooms, and then the supplement that just helps augment that. So for our calm pairing in the psilocybin supplement, we have psilocybin, but we also have reishi and lion's mane in there. Now, reishi is one of, a functional mushroom that is known as the longevity mushroom, along with chaga, but reishi is really beautiful about helping calm down the nervous system. And then lion's mane is really great for calming down neuroinflammation in the body, as well as promoting that neuroplastic state. And then the supplement version of that has reishi and lion's mane again in it, because we want to continue those beneficial effects on the days that you're not microdosing, but it also has linden tree, or tilia. It also has ashwagandha, and then it has L-theanine. So this is all about putting the brakes on the nervous system. So for somebody that has a lot of rumination, lots of anxiety on board, it's really great to just help calm down the nervous system. Then on the other side of that is I also created the focus pairing. Now the focus pairing on the psilocybin aspect is going to have lion's mane as well as niacin. This is going to help open up blood vessels, those little, teeny blood vessels within our central nervous system. And then lion's mane also is going to calm down that inflammation. But the supplement aspect of it has a lot of stimulating functional and adaptogens, functional mushrooms and adaptogens. So it has chaga. It has Cordyceps, rhodiola, and ginger. So this is a very warming formula to the body. I have a lot of people that are on this pairing to support them, if they have ADHD or that hyperactive brain. But also for the people that are feeling really stuck and like, really depressed and can't find that motivation. It helps warm them up. It helps warm up that energetics within the body as well, so that we can get the move on. And then I also formulated the introspective pairing, and this is a lot about dealing with the wounds, dealing with the things that are held and stuck in our body. So the psilocybin aspect of it has chaga and Cordyceps in it, so it is warming, it is stimulating. But then the supplement aspect has holy basil, gotu kola, and motherwort. Now holy basil, from an energetic perspective, is great for helping people move through transitions, so you know, healing that old wound. Gotu kola is really great for wound healing itself. It has this very cooling aspect to it too, so if trauma, and especially trauma has a very like warming effect on the body, like, "Oh my God, I'm not safe. Saber-toothed tiger's in the room. So it helps cool down that nervous system, and then it also has motherwort in it, and motherwart, leonurus cardiaca, is like a big mama hug to the heart, but it's also mama bear is in your body, and so really good at forming boundaries and supporting you, but then also nourishing you and loving and holding gently with you.

Leah Linder 39:57
Those are incredible formulas.

Leah Linder 42:22
Thanks so much. I'm a little biased, because I think I feel really, really grateful for them, and they're, I mean, they're helping so many people.

Rob Lutz 42:33
it's wonderful. Yeah. So I think we touched on most everything we said we're going to talk about. Is there anything else, Pam or Leah, that you guys want to touch on?

Pam Conboy 42:43
There's so, so very much else. Maybe just a little bit, just a little bit about the church in that anyone's welcome to become a member. Membership is absolutely free. The reason we require membership if you want access to the psilocybin is to demonstrate the idea behind sincere use. So membership helps keep us protected, and anyone that wants to experience this medicine protected as well. Are the protection only is in the United States. We can't really operate outside of that legislation, so we don't support people outside of the country, but we are, we do provide for psilocybin shipments to qualified members. We do with this screening. There are no serious contraindications, and we are beginning to take the show on the road, so to speak, for larger experiences, because these are the things that we get a lot of questions about. "I have to come to Reno?" Well, for right now, you have to come to Reno, but we are working on, we're actually doing our first show on the road at the end of this month.

Rob Lutz 43:49
Great. So yeah, we'll have show notes. I'll have your contact information. You guys will provide some links, so listeners can follow up with you guys directly, if they have questions, or if they want to become a member, or just learn a little bit more about how you guys are doing this, whether it's in Reno or other places. If it's okay for me to mention, I think we talked about there might be something in conjunction with some of the conferences that we all go to ahead of time.

Pam Conboy 44:10
Yeah, so it's not in association with those conferences but there are three coming up this year that are in Southern California.

Rob Lutz 44:19
Yeah.

Pam Conboy 44:19
And because that people kind of collect there, you know, ahead of a relative related conference, we are very much thinking about having preconference--again, not associated with it--before the conference for those who are interested in getting to know us, picking our brains about any topic they'd like to, as well as experiencing how we do macrodose ceremony, because we've had such interest. So that would be in late May, early June, September, two in San Diego and one in July.

Leah Linder 44:56
One in Palm Springs.

Pam Conboy 44:59
Yes, and the other is in July in Palm Springs.

Rob Lutz 45:02
Yeah. So we'll make sure that the listeners are able to track you guys down and learn more about this. I think you will find there are a lot of practitioners that have interest in this, which I'm sure you've already seen. We also talked a little bit about maybe having you guys contribute some articles, going deeper, maybe on some of these case studies, because I think that's very fascinating as well. And I'm really interested in these pairings. They sound really cutting edge, amazing, thinking outside the box to me anyway, probably not to you, but really very impressive the way that these have been put together. So excited to see that.

Leah Linder 45:33
Thank you so much. Yeah, happy to chat with anybody about them. And again, yeah, this is a supportive tool that you can utilize in your practice. So beyond, you know, my private practice have just seen so much transformation in other people. And again, I don't operate as a doctor in the church, because we do take it very sincere. But the other thing with that is that it can be an added tool. And like we were talking about with the conferences, I haven't been to a conference in the last probably two years where psilocybin or other psychedelics haven't been on the topic.

Rob Lutz 46:08
Absolutely.

Leah Linder 46:09
So I know that you know your audience is hearing about this, and the question is always, "Well, how do we have access to this?" And so that's what we did, was create a safe pathway so that you can have access to it, and it is super clean ingredients, all the way from source to the capsule. We made it the best that we could,

Rob Lutz 46:30
Well, I know your background. I couldn't imagine you guys producing anything that wasn't best quality, best standard safety, all that. Congrats.

Rob Lutz 46:34
Thanks so much.

Speaker 1 46:36
Just one other thing to clarify, in case people are interested in connecting patients to a safe and qualified source, meaning it's that we don't sell anything. Everything's based on donation, and the licensed practitioner is not going to want to have this in their clinic. That's a big risk for them. So everything is operated through us. Although we'll have direct communication with the physician, it is much safer to keep it the way we have it structured. So it's not something we would supply to petitioners.

Rob Lutz 47:15
Right. Makes sense. Any last clinical pearls, words of wisdom, anything you want to share, key takeaway that you'd like the listeners to remember one thing. That's a big one. Sorry.

Leah Linder 47:29
I think that my thought is that I'm convinced that mushrooms are going to help us evolve and evolve in a meaningful, sustainable way.

Pam Conboy 47:42
And I would say this pathway is extremely safe. It has the highest safety profile of any of these types of substances, and a lot of other things, as I think we mentioned earlier. So it's a really good option, maybe to start, rather than a pharmaceutical, or if. People shouldn't be parked on an SSRI for three decades, Rob, That's not what we're designed for, so there are a lot of people in that situation, and this plant medicine can really help let go of that habituation.

Rob Lutz 48:20
Great. Thank you. Well, thank you guys. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Very interesting. I think we'll have more of this to come, and I do appreciate you guys coming on the show.

Leah Linder 48:29
Thanks so much, Rob.

Pam Conboy 48:30
Thank you. Happy to be here.

Rob Lutz 48:33
Thanks for listening to the OneMedicine Podcast. I hope you found today's episode interesting and came away with a few insights you can apply to your practice. If you're looking for the show notes, they can be found in the link below. If you want to go deeper on this topic or anything else, please visit todayspractitioner.com and consider registering for our weekly newsletter as well. Thanks again, and I hope you'll join us next time.